The (forced) disappearance of cash continues, but I wonder what would happen if you turn up at a card only premises, eat their food & then only offer cash?
They will say card only, but you are offering legal tender;
They might say you have consumed food without the means to pay, but you have the legal means to pay.
Would they call the police & how would this be litigated I wonder?
Just needs a group to organise this sort of action, and we might find out?
#economics
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/mar/16/uk-high-street-chains-restaurants-cash-payments
@ChrisMayLA6 Once cashless loving Sweden is drifting back to cash on account of national security concerns. If payment systems are brought down by hackers, bit of a problem if there’s no alternative to cash.
@ChrisMayLA6 For those interested, here’s an article on why Sweden is going back to cash - Back to cash: life without money in your pocket is not the utopia Sweden hoped: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/mar/16/sweden-cash-digital-payments-electronic-banking-security
I just don't see that in daily life in Sweden. But that's probably anecdotic....
@Januschka @ChrisMayLA6 Interesting to hear this. Maybe Swedes are using the Swish system? Not cash but less reliant on external networks or providers.
@alex_p_roe
Swish is very common here and e.g. the expected means to pay for flea market items and similar small-scale sales. But even (online) shops use it, though usually as an additional method.
However, it is private, is based on another digital ID system (again, private) and only runs on Google or Apple devices. I suspect it is not very resilient.
It is not anonymous either, which has been relevant in some criminal cases recently.
@Januschka @ChrisMayLA6
I wonder if swish would work on a de-googled phone.....
@Januschka @hanno Depends whether the OS supports card payments, I imagine. There’s a mobile version of Linux but is not widespread, as far as I know.
@Januschka
I personally have never tried, as I am not aware of any officially supported ways of obtaining the apk outside Google's app store. I guess one could just ask for the apk... but I know that at least the underlying BankID app requires regular updates or stops working. So one would need to ensure updates as well.
I have considered pulling the apk from another phone but decided for living without instead (even though I do get funny looks sometimes or find myself leaving without buying).
@hanno @Januschka Pulling from another phone might not work as apks are dynamically generated from aabs most likely.
@hanno @Januschka @ChrisMayLA6 Swish is private but is controlled by Swedish banks so it’s less likely to be affected by events on the other side of the Atlantic or attacks on systems run from the USA. This is good, I’d say.
@alex_p_roe
...until it is kicked from the app stores 
Of course, you are right.
However the fact that they essentially control both the only widespread digital ID _and_ e-cash infrastructures is worrying imho. Especially considering how well-established they are in Sweden: they are many shops which will accept Swish but *not* cash and even state institutions build upon their ID solution to the point it is assumed you use them. Yet they only run on closed platforms.
@Januschka @ChrisMayLA6
@alex_p_roe
And concerning attacks on systems in the US: do you have insights into how banks are regulated in this regard? Considering they are e.g. using MasterCard/Visa and probably many other US IT services, I would assume the worst.
Like when an attack on an US supplier shut down the cash registers in the Swedish supermarket chain Coop (as a pure side-edfect iirc).
I only assumed that banks have similar dependencies, but I'd be glad to learn otherwise :)
@Januschka @ChrisMayLA6
@hanno @Januschka @ChrisMayLA6 Not sure about this but I can probably find out. Credit-debit card circuit glitch caused issues for shops in Italy (where I am) not that long ago. Maybe the same one which affected Sweden? US and European payment processing seems to be almost inextricably linked. Might have changed. Will ask about this too.
@hanno @Januschka @ChrisMayLA6 Spoke to someone who works for one of Italy’s largest banks today. He is involved in transaction processing and told me that it’d be very hard, if not impossible, to bring down payment services entirely because of amount of redundancy built info the networks. And European banks have alternatives to Visa and Mastercard. Not so much regulation as keeping bank business up and running to keep the cash coming in.
@alex_p_roe
So the endpoints (eg cash registers, web pages) are more likely to fail but the underlying system should work? Makes sense.
Coincidentally, a new case of payments at a Swiss supermarket chain failing due to an IT incident just popped up: https://cybermaterial.com/spar-group-switzerland-struck-by-cyberattack/
@Januschka @ChrisMayLA6
@hanno @Januschka @ChrisMayLA6 Good point re endpoints such as cash registers but there are a few different types so knocking all of them out would not be easy. Re websites, yes, if the web is taken out, so are the sites. Point is, yes, some systems can be brought down but not all of them, in theory. We’ll find out…one day!
@hanno @alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6
banks sure have similar dependencies ... almost everything seems to be linked to the USA these days.
Using kontanter seems more and more a distant option though everyone SHOULD have cash at home and use it. Works fine for daily life. Where banks need to be involved, non-US-based ones seems preferable, just likewith other IT and all other services.
Let's take the chance to explore european possibilities. :)
@Januschka @hanno @ChrisMayLA6 I wish cash always worked fine! Here in Italy, you get dirty looks and requests for coins if you use €20 banknotes to pay for a €1.20 coffee! Well, that used to happen. Now I just use a card - easy for me, quick and no problems with change. Digital cash is great…if only it weren’t a national security risk. European possibilities are a good idea. Perhaps Swish could expand beyond Sweden 
I'd like to hope that EU /ECB comes up with an European solution asap....
As far as Fairphone/Android is concerned: Got info and tools here on Masto to de-android FP, just haven't done it yet. But seems that there are ways.
@hanno @Januschka @ChrisMayLA6 Good point re app stores - time to buy a Huawei mobile?! Cash is a pain in the neck and costly to manage. Perhaps some kind of standalone system would be best? Something that does not need a network to operate but can be synched to a network if necessary. A USB or SD card based wallet? We need something before it’s too late.
@alex_p_roe @hanno @ChrisMayLA6
I am happy with my Fairphone!
@Januschka @hanno @ChrisMayLA6 I’m sure you are but it’s Android! If Google embraces the dark side, one bricked phone!
@alex_p_roe
Of course, you can run Android without (immediate) Google dependency -- but then you are likely not running your bank's apps either. Catch-22, really. 
Found the negotiations between Google+Apple and the EU about the Covid app instructive: though I personally agreed with the points made by the former, I thought they had *way* too much leverage towards a democratic institution and essentially dictated what was possible to run on our phones.
@Januschka @ChrisMayLA6
@hanno @Januschka @ChrisMayLA6 Well, you could always ditch the app and use the web interface…which won’t be fun on a mobile! Or do banking on a laptop which uses Linux and a non US developed browser. The silver lining of the Trump cloud is that various institutions may start looking for non US solutions for banking and other services. Or insist on a standalone European ecosystem ring fenced against issues in the US.
yes, Swish is everywhere.
Younger people have hardly seen cash.
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 the headline says that. the article talks about having some cash around as a backup in an emergency. not actually going back to it for daily usage.
Norway at least is virtually cashless and everyone is happy about that. good to have an emergency backup, of course.
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 Sweden figures it out: like abolishing capital punishment over a century ago!
@TENET_CDN @ChrisMayLA6 Sweden is a progressive nation with a, generally, intelligent population and a high standard of living. But it has been having some issues with the integration of non European migrants and has been seeing a swing towards the political right.
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 It is never easy but contagion is pervasive.
@TENET_CDN @ChrisMayLA6 Especially when certain parties push the immigrants are toxic line day and night.
Another example of people finding out that efficiency is brittle, and that redundancy and resilience matter.
@DavidM_yeg @ChrisMayLA6 That’s a good way of putting it. If only it’s was more widely understood.
We need to keep repeating these truths loudly and often, in much the same way proponents of laughable concept like ‘trickle-down’ did in order to get everyone to accept them. It took them a couple decades, maybe it will be faster for us since we have the truth on our side 
@DavidM_yeg @ChrisMayLA6 As well as truth, we’ve got evidence that what has been forced upon us all for the last 40 plus years simply has not worked. Indeed, it has made matters worse to the point of bringing about a third world war.
surely 40 years or 4 decades..... even by the most permissive definitions I don't think we can argue that a neoliberal version of capitalism has been dictating policy for 40 decades, that puts us back to the merchant quasi-capitlaism of C17th - or have I missed the/an historic point?
@ChrisMayLA6 @DavidM_yeg Oops! O meant 4 decades ago, not 40! Will correct that.
@alex_p_roe
I sometimes wish that the "cash card" system we had for a few years in Sweden had remained, and been improved upon. Money was effectively transferred to the card (up to 1500 SEK), so it wouldn't necessarily require anything to be online for usage.
Seems to have ended due to greed on behalf of the banks, and low adoption rates..
https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_(betalsystem)
@DavidM_yeg @ChrisMayLA6
@jwarlander @DavidM_yeg @ChrisMayLA6 Also ended probably because it was hard to use and difficult - expensive to manage too. Italy had rechargeable cards for online purchases. Think they’ve been abandoned, not sure. Maybe banks should not be for profit stock exchange listed businesses.
@alex_p_roe
You're probably right about usability! I tried the functionality a little at least, but don't really remember what my impression was 
It was probably ahead of its time.
I'm sure it could've been easier to use today - charging via your phone perhaps, etc. Still, digital always has its own risks. Maybe it would've been easy to fool the system in the end, and make free money.
@DavidM_yeg @ChrisMayLA6
@jwarlander @DavidM_yeg @ChrisMayLA6 Well, phones are the logical place to put a payment app especially now that NFC is all over the place…but we are back to the original problem. If the payment network goes down, without cash, people can’t pay for things. A stand alone device (or app) might be the solution with a finger print reader maybe? It’d have to be able to work when networks are down. Needs to be studied.
@alex_p_roe @jwarlander @DavidM_yeg @ChrisMayLA6 In Denmark we’ve had “Dankort” since the mid-80’s. They are cards created and run by the Danish banks, and pretty much everyone has one since when you get a bank account, you get a hybrid Visa/Dankort debit card (or sometimes Mastercard/Dankort).
Payments will default to Dankort and use the others if it’s not an option.
It doesn’t make us more resilient to Russian attacks, but does provide some defence against the US
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 at 75=I’m considered ancient but hardly ever use cash. Had to get a taxi driver with no card reader to stop at an ATM on an urgent journey. The same way I’ve given up cheques I am virtually cash free so much so that I arrived at my hotel last week to realise I had left my cash and cards behind. The phone worked fine
@John_Loader @ChrisMayLA6 Cashless is extremely convenient, especially when Ones eyesight is not as good as it once was! Well done at 75 for using this tech. A lot of older people seem to be a bit scared by it, though.
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 The first computer I used had thermionic valves. Everyone should keep to date with technology or be left in the cold.
@John_Loader @ChrisMayLA6 Wow! That was a while ago! Re tech, I agree even if some old people find modern tech very hard to use. My late mum was one but my late dad had no problem using the www and Word, email etc.
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 1967. It calculated the pay of all London’s postmen.
@John_Loader @ChrisMayLA6 Wow! I was two then! Didn’t actually start using computers until mid 1980s and I was one of the first in the office to put them to good use.
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 a lovely Irishman Con Conway was an officer in the British Army signalsi in Hong Kong. As nobody knew what to do with a crate marked Computer they let him play. Became a key figure in computing in Hong Kong via NCR and even a VP of HK Olympic Committee.
@John_Loader @ChrisMayLA6 Ha! I never reached such heights but did earn myself a few pay rises for computerising stuff! Fun times!
@alex_p_roe @ChrisMayLA6 Cashless means helpless when wifi systems are out
@j_g_fitzgerald @ChrisMayLA6 Not just Wi-Fi but potentially the web in general. Economies would grind to a halt.